Subject: The Arranged Introduction alternative...

From: [email-masked] (Mani Subramanyam)
Date: 22 Aug 90 07:53:03 GMT

Well, here is yet another read-only person jumping in: 

   [email-masked] (Munira) writes about her experiences and/or
"ordeals" with 10+ guys that she has met or talked to. In the midst of all 
this "Arranged Marriage in India" discussion, I didn't see anyone discuss 
the alternative, i.e. try to meet and commit to someone right here in the 
USA, by one's own effort. I am specifically referring to "Single India-raised 
Males" (SIRMs) and "Single India-raised Females" (SIRFs) here. They could 
be students (typically grad students) or professionals. How does one go 
about it ? What must one be prepared for ? What things change when the 
scene shifts from India to the USA ? What are certain "non-issues" in 
the typical "Arranged Marriage" scenario that could be "issues" here, and 
vice versa ? How does one go on one's own over here ? I figured I would share 
my thoughts on this. I am certainly not Mr Perfect. And I am still single. 
But I have been through a few "turbulent" periods of my own. And have perhaps 
something to offer to the SIRMs and SIRFs out there as suggestions.....

Here are some things that come to mind:

a) A "blind" date is not a good idea !

We all know how the situation is re: SIRMs and SIRFs and their distribution.
Someone you know is bound to offer you an introduction to some SIRM/SIRF who
they think is "compatible" to you. This "go-between" could be a good friend, 
a really close relative, whatever. It can get quite delicate, but it makes 
a lot of sense to insist on exchange of photographs, whoever the person
might be. Of course, this is when the SIRM/SIRF didn't/couldn't run into 
each other in a casual setting, such as a party or something that they
both get invited to.... 

Try as they might to keep things casual and without pressure, the typical
SIRM/SIRF put pressure on "themselves" when they meet/talk to someone new.
especially when the BIG-TWO-FIVE approacheth for SIRFs, and the BIG-THREE-O
approacheth for SIRMs.....

Nothing wrong here at all. This is just reality. Almost the "conditioning"
of our culture back home, and expectations of parents, family, etc. 

b) Looooong phone convs before meeting someone is not a good idea !

When you meet someone, the feeling is totally different than when you were
talking on the phone. Also, the personality could be quite different in
person. Things said on the phone are also more easily liable to be
mis-understood, or mis-interpreted. It's hard to guage moods, expressions,
tone, intent etc over the phone....

c) SIRMs need to rein in some of that ego deep down inside them ....

The typical SIRF here is intelligent, smart, and has more of a mind of
her own than the girl you might meet on a trip home. Just as we SIRMs 
change and evolve over the few years that we are here (especially the 
first couple of years), they do too ! They are usually quite committed
to whatever studies they are doing. It is unfair to expect them to 
give up "their" years of hard work, when they have a year or two left
on their PhD, or whatever. It is also unfair to expect they give up the 
reward for all that work, in terms of a career at the level that would 
make them happy....

It's really hard, but there is more tension here. There are many 
situations where there are two strong personalities involved. Many
SIRMs find that hard to deal with. Perhaps a good sense of humour,
honest/frank talk and always "being oneself" are all the more
important here, for the two people to connect (versus the typical
scenario back in India) 

> Munira Says:

> MY EXPERIENCE:
> I have met or talked on this matter so far with at least TEN+ guys.

> Ordeal indeed. Because I wish to continue my doctorate, in political
> science, I use to "proceed" the talks only with those guys who CLAIMED
> that they were interested in PROFESSIONAL GIRLS

I don't think it makes sense to see these as "ordeals". After all, the
typical "encounter" in our case is a meeting, and a discussion of what
the SIRM/SIRF's goals, interests, expectations are. I used to get upset
myself initially. But then, that's life. At least we are honest about it.
The encounter is short enough that both people can move on. And both people
would still have a lot to give to the long-term relationship that they
finally settle for....

d) The SIRM professional - SIRF student scenerio....

This is fairly common. And it's tough sometimes. The first tough issue
that usually pops up is, "Who will move/switch/change job/univ ?" 
Remember that the SIRM is usually quite committed and unwilling to
switch jobs/careers, sometimes for immigration reasons. And the SIRF
is unwilling to switch univs, so close to theses and final research
time....How long does this go on ? The reality is if something such
as this could become an issue, be prepared to discuss this up front,
so that there is minimal mis-understanding, minimal unnecessary effort,
energy, emotions expended by either party. And be very honest and break
it off. 

Now when you break off, do you keep in touch ? My experience has been,
nope, you don't ! SIRMs and SIRFs are "conditioned" to have either
real "friends", or a real SO (significant other). When you go on an
emotional roller-coaster with someone, however short, if it doesn't
work out....you are better off with a clean break. No phone calls.
No contact. No casual meetings. Sure, you two could possibly be "great"
friends, because you have so many things in common ! But nevertheless,
you are better off going your separate ways until at least one of you
is all set !!!

e) One-on-one vs casual dinner with friends.

The typical SIRM is better off meeting a SIRF that he has never met before
in a "group" setting, rather than a 1-on-1 setting. Probably with say
another couple who are good "friends" of the SIRF and NOT any sort of
person related to either party. That is great, because it's natural
that we all have a different side or personality to us, depending on
it being a social outing with friends, versus an outing with a total
stranger (which can get quite awkward, really !) 

The 1-on-1 outings can follow "later", if both feel comfortable, and
would want to do that.....

I have heard from more than a few SIRFs that they are intimidated by
the idea of a 1-on-1 date with a SIRM, so they bring along a brother,
cousin, uncle etc for the initial meeting ...That can cause a lot of 
discomfort to the poor SIRM !!! So suggesting a couple (who are just
friends) is a great improvement on that ! 

> As far as MY EXPERIENCE goes I have found that indian guys are somewhat
> intimidated by the idea of a truly professional wife. They want an
> educated "independent" wife but at the same time are not willing to change
> their role or their responsibilties which comes with a fulltime working
> wife.

Well, there are all kinds of guys. Some would find it hard to handle the
situation where their spouses do much better professionally and monetarily
than they do ! Perhaps the majority of SIRMs feel that way. But again, that
is life ! That's again "conditioning", and certainly not specific to 
"Indian" guys.....

The only thing SIRFs can do in this situation is search longer and harder
for the SIRM who meets "their" expectations ! The more educated they are,
the more intelligent they are, it's gonna be that much harder to meet that
"compatible" SIRM.  

SIRFs will have to shed certain inhibitions (about going through friends,
looking through those matrimonials - and believe me, there are a lot of
really decent guys out there. Sure there are jerks everywhere. But then,
you only hear about that one jerk ! And not about those 10 decent guys !!!)

> With all fairness to indian guys I want to mention that their fears are not
> totally unwarranted. So far we have been always protected by the society and
> major decisions in life were made for us by either our parents or guardians.
> Although we did grumble at times, we did perpetuate the systme for one reason
> or another.

Yes, it's really hard to break out of the "system" and do your own thing.
Because you will have lots of people trying to dissuade you. And trying to
convince you that the regular "arranged marriage" route is the way to go.
Especially when I hear not-so-good-things about SIRFs based in the USA from
say someone who went back and got married (which has happened on more than
a few times), it doesn't seem right at all.....

> Now the problem with our generation is that we are forced due to circumstances
> to make major decisions by ourselves. No matter how WESTERNISED we think we
> have become we are still not able to take the responsibilities that goes with
> the freedom of decision-making.

You are right. Finally, it's about making decisions. I guess we all try to
do the best we can. And consequently, are thrown into new situations that
we wouldn't have to deal with if we just decided to go with the status-quo,
and do the "3-way-ticket" deal !!! 

> WITH BEST WISHES

> MUNIRA

Enjoyed reading what you had to say ! Comments on what I've written in here
are most welcome.....

Thanks,
Mani

<to some poster--email>
Subject: Fatalism in attitudes towards Marriage, Compromises and Compatibility [Re: Exploiting]
Status: RO

   It turns out that all the things I wound up saying were exactly my
opinions in this regard even before I entered the sci discussion (this
is not to in anyway undermine the importance of the stimulation of
this discussion--it is just that I have thought about this topic for a
long time; have tons of exchanged letters with me. )
  Further, with all my diatribes against black and white thinking, I
will be a complete fool if I were to look at arranged and love
marriages in the black and white perspective.
   I agree with you on one thing though--it took me  a loooong time to
come to the current position (and even longer to make a coherent
presentation of it).
   Your point that my first article might be seen as an all out attack
on the arranged marriages is well taken. It was written with the
specific purpose of "shaking" people and asking them to see if they
are endorsing practises completely anti-thetical to their values. My
idea was to draw people into the discussion with that, and then start
talking emphasizing the "spectrum" and the "Conscious decision" parts
to make people realize that what i and others are suggesting is NOT AN
UNREACHABLE AND IMPRACTICAL GOAL!

   Finally, regarding your encouraging words about the last (fatalism)
posting-- I appreciate the compliment. I too consider this last one
the most difficult article that I had to write in this series--given
that it is about abstract considerations underlying people's
decisions. It always bothered me when people looked at things in this
binary fashion, but it took a long time for me to formulate the right
criticism of that line of reasoning.  And just 4 hours (from 8pm to
12pm) to compose that semi-coherent article :-(

-Rao
[Aug 17, 1990]

<mail from some one... name deleted>

Interesting article!

I have come to know about you via Dheeraj who spent a weekend's day
with me discussing various things, late last month.

I agree with your viewpoints (By and large). I have a couple of 
questionS however.

Your argument mostly deals with "Arranged marriages (3way) are not
good; instead, go for love or semilove marriages". But I dont require,
fortunately, any justfication for that; instead I feel that we
should be able to provide platform for such "love/semilove" marriages
to happen. Given the social setting, the chances are so low. How do
you propose to deal with this? I proposed one to my friends/whatever.

Take teh guy and gal to a place like "beach(coming from vizag, that is
the first thing that hits my mind)", or "temple's avarana" or park,
and let THEM talk to each other, while th e chaperon(s) hang around.
After a couple of hours, they can come back and go home. If you repeat
this often enough, then one may get a better choice of spouce. 

what do you think?...

Finally, "galilo deepam ..." is a Folklore statement. I guess you
should give credit to that austrian scientist Mr.Folklore (:-) rather
than plagiarizing (:-):-)

A personal question: (If you are not YET married), how do you plan to
take it? 

(REASON: I am a student and went home (vizag) once, felt 
"YUCK" about the arranged marriage and hence did not go for it. I dont
understand how to deal with  it. So, I thought your opinion may be
of some use. YOU MAY CHOOSEE NOT TO ANSWER THIS).

kumar.
-- 

<some one>

Rao: your latest article was a very good one. Your punch line was very close to
what is likely to be the truth. Thanks for leading a good discussion on the
net. And, thanks for not shirking away and participating in it all through. 

I felt that your first message was all-out in favor of love marriages (not that
you essentially believe in the complete supremacy of love marriages but so it
sounded in your first message.) As the discussion continued your opinion
altered sloghtly and seemed more moderate. I think that this change was
excellent and this is what discussions are for. I completely agree with your
last (so far!) message. 

	regards,

<someone...name deleted email> 

Dear Rao,

In article <[email-masked]> you write:

     .......< stuff deleted > ....

>The real culprits are an inability to distinguish between DEGREES, an
>insistence on "guarantees," and a proclivity for looking at everything
>in black and white. 
>
>And the same inability shows up in the arguments that unconditionally
>glorify role of "COMPROMISES" in a successful marriage; several of
>which appeared in this thread, notably Mr. Satyam, Mr. Alok, Mr.
>Raavirala, Mr.  Pidaparti (and probably completely unwittingly by
>Vikram Duvvoori).
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It was an excellent article. I agree with both the central theses 
you have presented on the issue of arranged marriages: that
they often involve a lot of exploitation, and that one should
approach them without dichotomizing issues (Complete vs.
incomplete, apriori information) but should appreciate the whole
spectrum of possibilities. 

I had originally planned on writing an article placing all the
ideas that have come up so far, in my overall perspective.
However, the unusually large number of articles on the subject
that have already appeared on SCI, discourage me from doing so.
I think the marginal utility of this issue, seems to be
diminishing, as I notice a lot of fatigue, in private and
public responses. Hence the resort to the email medium.

I wish to clarify my views and expressed ideas, in the
context of the reference made above. I had neither
intentionally nor `unwittingly' tried to glorify compromises at
the COST of better initial understanding. In my article I took
great care to stress the fact that the exploitation has to be
judged in the context of the prevelant attitudes in the
society. The logical implication of this, is that exploitation
is avoided when the skewed values are eschewed. So an obvious
solution to the problem under discussion, is to be consciously
aware of such attitudes within us. The words I used like
sensitivity, understanding, care, mutual love, etc.  are to me 
very potent and pregnant with meaning. These words cannot be
used in the context of some of the situations you have referred
to in your article. 

I did NOT assert that any marriage would succeed, provided the
right compromises are made. I only asserted, that once a basic
understanding of the other person is achieved, then the other
smaller issues can be worked out through compromises. So the
situations like partner A believes in working for social
development while B believes in making money, or A believes in
Bashing while B doesnt etc. are not meaningful situations to
apply what I have said. I think any such argument to discredit
the value of compromises, is only putting up a straw-man.

We have both been rooting for the same spread of spectrum. 
Personally I would not like to see any exploitation of one
human being by another, whether in marriages or elsewhere.
Where social institutions are involved, I believe that I can
always suggest extreme solutions but their acceptance will be
based on realistic understanding of human attitudes. So, while
advocating the ideal of a perfect loving marriage, I am willing to 
think of means to use the existing institutions for social change. 
In any loving marriage I believe that compromises are
necessary. 

I think many of us, who do spend some thought in our responses,
see the obvious spectrum of possibilities for compromises.
There are some compromises that one cannot make, 
and some that one can. When many of us, stress the
need for compromises, we say it keeping this spectrum in mind.
There is always as implicit assumtion that some compromises are
not possible.(Any of the persons, who has written thougtfully
on this, and has been quoted by you, I am sure would confidently
say that they never implied compromises like bashing, total
incompatibility etc. )

>
>So, what is the punchline?
>
>............. A 10-trip marriage (at least in the way
>samaddar meant it [though I do like veena's interpretation ;-)])
>provides 10/3 times higher probability of judging compatibility, and
>a correspondingly lower probability that you will have to make
>compromises of second and third types, as compared to a 1-trip (3-way
>ticket) marriage. 
>
>Any amount of extra time you spend in making a well-informed decision
>will COUNT-- thus giving you a SPECTRUM rather than an artificial
>dichotomy of choices.
>
>-Rao
>[Subba"Phooey, There goes another night"rao Kambhampati]
>

I totally agree with you that additional efforts spent in
judging compatibility will yield better results. 

I hope that the calculations were made in a humorous vein. I am
sure that you do agree with me that attempts to quantize
emotional judgements are not often successful. I think it is
better that qualitative statements be made with in a
qualitative way. Why do we need to use numbers? How can one
assert that the probability of judging compatibility is directly
proportional to the time or effort spent in doing it? I do not
intend to be picking up on a small detail. I do object to
attempts at quantizing human emotions and judgements. 

Thank you for your excellent articles. It has been interesting
to follow the discussions generated.

Vikram

p.s. I  might post an article on these issues on SCI, in a 
revised version on the net. Obviously, the focus then would 
be different. 

p.p.s. I lapped up every single article written by Hofstadter 
under the `Metamagical Themas' series. In fact, the first book 
that my wife presented to me 4 years back, was the book published
>from the collection of these essays!!